It depends on which definition of haiku you use. The common Western definition (five, seven, five syllables) bears little resemblance to the Japanese definition. For example in Japan they don't count syllables but rather "morae", which has no direct counterpart in the English languge. In Japanese, haiku must include a kigo and a kireji, which are special types of words that (you guessed it) have no direct equivalent in the English language.
John's haiku is short, it has a dash in it (a bit like a kireji), and a season-related word (a bit like a kigo). It also has cats and quilts in it. That's good enough for me.
Bill - I questioned it because I'm a pedantic pain in the wossname. It wasn't meant as a personal criticism. Mel's explained her understanding of haiku and how it differs from mine - and that was very interesting because I'd previously just accepted that what I knew as haiku was all there was to know.
Mel - I didn't know that our Western definition of haiku differed so much from what I take to be the original Japanese form. Thanks for explaining it so simply, when it clearly isn't a simple thing at all.
It's OK Fran (femsc). Bill's my dad and he's fiercely protective of what he perceives as criticism of his daughter. Me, I'm big enough and ugly enough to take real criticism when it comes, and thick-skinned enough not to see criticism when it isn't really there. I knew what you (and grega&gar) really meant, and was secretly pleased at the opportunity to show off my enormous general knowledge.
femsc/Fran - you didn't actually say what your interpretation of Haiku was. Can you give us a clue of how it differs from Melanie's - I'd only ever heard the 5,7,5 bit and didn't know it was more complicated than that.
Vaguely in order: Mel - I guessed it was *that* Bill; no one else would have sprung to your defence quite so fiercely :) Bill - you needn't worry, I'm very fond of your daughter and I wouldn't dream of arguing with her. She's much too bright, for one thing! Also, she never says anything without a good deal of thought, so she's usually right with what she says. You can be very proud of her - but then you already know that.. Mel - you can stop blushing now, and come out of hiding. I enjoyed your response, 'cos I really hadn't realised we'd got it 'wrong' in our perception of haiku. Neil - I was thinking of the 5-7-5 thing, not knowing any different. 'Twas Mel who explained that the Japanese (who really ought to know) wouldn't necessarily recognise our western haiku.
Feeling really embarrassed now. Serves me right for leaping in. 'Engage brain before opening mouth'. It's what my dad taught me, what I taught my girls. I really should practice what I preach, shouldn't I? Anyway, sorry everyone.
11 comments:
haiku?
Not exactly haiku - but not to worry, I won't tell if you won't :)
Purrr. Nice kitty :)
Fran
Your picture has given me kitty fever... I want a kitty:)
It depends on which definition of haiku you use. The common Western definition (five, seven, five syllables) bears little resemblance to the Japanese definition. For example in Japan they don't count syllables but rather "morae", which has no direct counterpart in the English languge. In Japanese, haiku must include a kigo and a kireji, which are special types of words that (you guessed it) have no direct equivalent in the English language.
John's haiku is short, it has a dash in it (a bit like a kireji), and a season-related word (a bit like a kigo). It also has cats and quilts in it. That's good enough for me.
Why can't people just read, absorb, contemplate, enjoy? Why nit-pick about something offered for your pleasure?
Bill - I questioned it because I'm a pedantic pain in the wossname. It wasn't meant as a personal criticism.
Mel's explained her understanding of haiku and how it differs from mine - and that was very interesting because I'd previously just accepted that what I knew as haiku was all there was to know.
Mel - I didn't know that our Western definition of haiku differed so much from what I take to be the original Japanese form.
Thanks for explaining it so simply, when it clearly isn't a simple thing at all.
Fran
It's OK Fran (femsc). Bill's my dad and he's fiercely protective of what he perceives as criticism of his daughter. Me, I'm big enough and ugly enough to take real criticism when it comes, and thick-skinned enough not to see criticism when it isn't really there. I knew what you (and grega&gar) really meant, and was secretly pleased at the opportunity to show off my enormous general knowledge.
femsc/Fran - you didn't actually say what your interpretation of Haiku was. Can you give us a clue of how it differs from Melanie's - I'd only ever heard the 5,7,5 bit and didn't know it was more complicated than that.
Vaguely in order:
Mel - I guessed it was *that* Bill; no one else would have sprung to your defence quite so fiercely :)
Bill - you needn't worry, I'm very fond of your daughter and I wouldn't dream of arguing with her. She's much too bright, for one thing! Also, she never says anything without a good deal of thought, so she's usually right with what she says. You can be very proud of her - but then you already know that..
Mel - you can stop blushing now, and come out of hiding. I enjoyed your response, 'cos I really hadn't realised we'd got it 'wrong' in our perception of haiku.
Neil - I was thinking of the 5-7-5 thing, not knowing any different. 'Twas Mel who explained that the Japanese (who really ought to know) wouldn't necessarily recognise our western haiku.
Fran
Feeling really embarrassed now. Serves me right for leaping in. 'Engage brain before opening mouth'. It's what my dad taught me, what I taught my girls. I really should practice what I preach, shouldn't I? Anyway, sorry everyone.
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